Two Unfathomable Mysteries? Beyond All Reasonable Conjecture?
March 9, 2009 - 12:18 am23 Responses to “Two Unfathomable Mysteries? Beyond All Reasonable Conjecture?”
Alright, here’s a question for you: at the time when Jesus the prophet lived, how common were first names that approximated phonetically to “Jesus” (Which is of course an anglicised version of the Latin Iesus, which comes from Greek, which derives from Aramaic…)?
You see, just because we’ve got reports of a foreigner in the West Country with a name that sounded like Jesus doesn’t mean we’ve got the actual Jesus who went on to be really famous; we might just have some random Jesus or indeed several of them, some of whom were quite skilled chappies and good at carpentry and so on.
Another thing to look at is the current issue of Northern Earth magazine, wherein there is an article that tries to probe how accurate folk memories are. In the village of Mytholmroyd, there once lived a famous poet, Ted Hughs. It is recorded where he lived, but even though people still lived in the village who knew the man, none of the three houses he was reported as growing up in was in fact the correct one.
Similarly a huge fire which partly destroyed the most prominent local mill and was a large factor in its eventual decline and closing was hardly remembered at all, despite having been a very prominent local event reported far and wide, with fire engines coming from as far away as Todmorden and Bacup.
This would tend to suggest that folk memory is very poor indeed, and folk stories would tend to be very garbled so the stories of Jesus in the West Country might well be little more than stories made up on the back of half-remembered shaggy dog stories from long ago.
Still, if we knew how commonplace the name Jesus or similar was, we’d be a lot nearer the truth.
Hi Dennis
Is it just me, or do any others wonder what they are missing in the Stonehenge photo, featured above, that
“contains all the information anyone could reasonably need when making an informed and educated supposition as to Stonehenge’s original function, especially if we pay close attention to what some senior archaeologists have had to say about the different features in this photograph over the years”?
I’m really intrigued by this.
I can see a face on the middle stone?
Hi Angie,
I didn’t write the line you quote on a whim. I wrote it after visiting the ruins when I was 10 and after spending decades wondering and reading about the place. I wrote it after visiting the ruins 3 times a week during the 10 years I lived nearby, after attending all the open solstices and after English Heritage kindly allowed me private access on occasion.
I wrote it after working with the Amesbury Archer and the Boscombe Bowmen and after having worked on the A303/Stonehenge Test Pit Project back in 2002. I wrote it after listening very carefully indeed to what Mike Parker-Pearson has had to say over the years and after reading as much I could by others like Mike Pitts, Atkinson and soon and so forth.
I could go on, mentioning the English Heritage custodians, the massive Stonehenge in its Landscape volume and many other sources, but I suppose that my point is that I’ve listened and kept my eyes and ears open, rather than formulate an idea then go in search of evidence that supported my idea and mine alone, if you follow me. The penny dropped some years ago, but as I wrote in my piece, I’ve been fascinated to see, hear and read what others have had to say in the meantime, while I was astonished by something you kindly sent me after my book had gone off to the printers.
With your permission, of course, I’ll refer to this a bit further down the line, and as promised, I shall publish the three photographs that I mentioned that I believe have a direct bearing on a specific aspect of early ceremonies at Stonehenge.
Of course, all this does not automatically make me right, because it is just an opinion. But I will say that it is an informed opinion and in reaching it, I pursued certain avenues that some senior archaeologists have hinted at over the years, but which they’ve not looked into further for reasons known only to themselves.
Thank you as always for writing in, so I’ll compose my thoughts and reply to what the others have had to say.
Hello Hugo,
It’s very kind of you to write in and to express such optimism, but we’ll just have to see how well this book fares before contemplating a sequel, although I’ll just say that I’m not short of material for a number of separate projects – we’ll see.
As for what my book covers, it’s easiest to say that I’ve tried to concentrate on establishing the whereabouts of Jesus as a young man virtually to the exclusion of all else. I don’t as a rule lose a great deal of sleep over people saying rude things about me, as Liann can verify if she’s reading this and cares to write in.
Publication day isn’t far off now, but I can’t for the life of me see why anyone should be offended in any way by what I’ve written, but again, we’ll have to see what the reception is. On the static page dealing with the book at the top of this site, I’ve posted up an exceedingly generous observation by a devout, astute and well-informed Christian gentleman, so I’m waiting to see what response my book receives from various other quarters.
For example, I know that the Stonehenge Druids wrote to my publishers requesting a copy for review. These men strike me as a singularly well-informed, courteous and thoughtful group, while one of their number, Frank Somers, was chosen by the BBC and the Smithsonian Museum to lead the ceremony at Stonehenge last year at the beginning of the excavation conducted by Professors Darvill and Wainwright that produced so much fascinating material i.e. the Roman coins, evidence of use of Stonehenge up to the 17th century, grains dated to 7,000 BC and so on.
I’ve had many emails from friends of mine around the world saying what a first-class job Frank Somers made of it; be all that as it may, he’s entitled to his opinion on what I’ve written, be it good or bad, so I’ll just have to learn to take the rough with the smooth.
And finally, for how – the day may soon come when you look back at the opening line of what you wrote in your comment and wonder if it referred to a mystery to match the ones I’m writing about. My first and last words on the subject.
Could it be about lines of sight from the solitary stone in the middle lining up on particular days over the course of the year to help mark the seasonal changes (As would be important, supposedly, to early users?) when the sun rises between the two pillars behind?
My book’s not entirely devoid of some contemplation of the relevance of humour, as you’ll see on page 22. Although it was a very dark work, the central theme of The Name of the Rose concerned comedy, so I’ve done my level best to take every last thing of relevance into account. To cut a very long story short, you’ll see what I mean on page 22.
Hi Dennis
You didn’t mean ‘just what we can actually see in this photo’ then? That’s how I read it, and where I’m mistaken. Maybe others are too?
I guess we all know, and can appreciate, how much knowledge and many years of experience you have of Stonehenge and I certainly would not dispute that.
I thought you meant that archaeologists had seen something crucial in that particular photo! DOH! :-S
Yes, of course you’re welcome to use those pics.
Well, I don’t know about anyone else for now, but I can see all manner of ‘crucial things’ in that photo, or as Marcus Aurelius observed “Of each particular thing, ask – What is it in itself? What is its nature? What does it do?”
Thank you also for permission to use the pictures, which I’ll do a bit further down the line.
Dear Dr Dan,
As long as there’s breath in my body, I will never stoop to wilful misinterpretation of what others have to say, at least as far as these subjects are concerned. Nonetheless, while I’m pretty sure that I know what you’re getting at, there are some broad generalisations and inconsistencies in the whole thing.
Firstly, the reports or legends or however you care to describe them specifically refer to Jesus, not to someone “with a name that sounded like Jesus”. We know this because in addition to the name he’s given, he’s variously credited with turning up with Joseph of Arimathea and/or his mother Mary, which is a fairly definitive identification; I write this part in response to “just because we’ve got reports of a foreigner in the West Country with a name that sounded like Jesus doesn’t mean we’ve got the actual Jesus who went on to be really famous”.
You also wrote “we might just have some random Jesus or indeed several of them, some of whom were quite skilled chappies and good at carpentry and so on” and you previously mention the existence of names that might approximate to something like Jesus. Quite.
Given the many possible permutations on this name, I find myself wondering just how many individuals there once were who were called or known by a name resembling Jesus, who were foreigners in the West Country and who were also generally good at building or the like. There may have been absolutely hundreds of them, if not thousands, but what time frame are we talking about?
If we’re referring to the rough period of AD 12 – 30, then it’s quite a coincidence that such a person with such a name should make such an impression at precisely the same time that Jesus is absent from the Biblical record. Being able to narrow this memory down to 18 years over a period of something like two millennia also rather goes against the idea of folk memory being unreliable, although I’d never claim that all folk memories are 100% reliable, of course.
And why the West Country? If the idea of the arrival of a stranger, from whatever part, who had a name that sounded something like Jesus and who was generally good at building could make an impression on people in a given locality, then I’d reasonably expect that the British Isles would be completely awash with such stories, but such is not the case. So, why the West Country? And why highly specific sites in the West Country?
There’s also the matter of the legends speaking of Jesus working in mines, building a church to the memory of his mother and so forth. I would expect to hear all manner of embellishments about miracles, given his later status, but the West Country stories are very straightforward – there are tales of him stepping ashore in Cornwall, sometimes working there, and there are tales of him working as a miner in Somerset, all of which sounds very uncomplicated and predictable if we’re envisaging the details of a historical visit by this specific young man. There seems to be nothing concerning Devon, but this is another matter entirely that I’ve examined in detail in my book.
Yes, I’m sure that there were many strangers with a name a bit like Jesus who were generally good with their hands, but why did just one of them apparently make such a huge and lasting impression in one particular place and in one particular time without being credited with all manner of miracles?
Again, I’m guessing, but there must also have been numerous horsemen with a name “something like” Edel or Adla or somesuch, but I don’t know of any stories of Attila the Hun turning up in Britain and let’s face it, he too was an exotic foreigner whose name was known around the world, albeit for entirely different reasons. With the best will in the world, you can’t have it both ways and regardless of how commonplace or rare a name like Jesus was at the time, I don’t think it has any real bearing on the truth of the matter.
You also wrote “….the stories of Jesus in the West Country might well be little more than stories made up on the back of half-remembered shaggy dog stories from long ago.” So, I’m left wondering just what exactly was this original, half-remembered shaggy dog story? What was its nature, for it to enable those who came later to weave in a sober and credible tale involving the most famous person who’s ever lived?
Unless you radically alter it, then logic suggests that the original story has to be something along the lines of a young carpenter or builder with a name like Jesus turning up in a boat in the West Country from the Middle East, working in the local mines with his uncle, not performing any miracles, then returning home at some point. Is this scenario out of the question? I suggest not and I further suggest that not only was it possible that Jesus did such a thing, but that it was virtually inevitable - these and all further details are in my book.
Please don’t think that this is meant to be confrontational in any way, because it most certainly is not. I’m very pleased that you wrote in and I’ve done my best (short of reprinting the whole book) to answer your question, but I’m sometimes told that I’m far more affable in person than I appear to be in print. In any event, thank you again for taking the time and trouble to write in, and I’m sure that our exchange will give others food for thought, regardless of whatever conclusion they ultimately reach.
“There is a green hill far away” sung to the Animals “House of the Rising Sun” (it works – credit to my music teacher Mr Sweeny) ……..I cannot imagine a more approriate combination for this site at the moment?
It is most unlikely folk memory will be ever be reliable in terms of specifics nor will the trivial survive. However it does not mean significant events were not recorded orally and then over time what was once history became embellished.
Although it may not now be in black and white and also require considerable interpretation it is important that any truth in tradition should be considered and not just ignored because of a bias for “hard” evidence.
Ah, I liked what you wrote about a different tune, John – yet another insight that I’m sure Blake and others would have approved of.
I’ve certainly looked into the legends of Jesus visiting Britain in great depth in my book, but I assure you that it contains far, far more than just this. As to what constitutes ‘hard’ evidence, then I’m sure you’ll find some very surprising material inside and I’ve looked into it all to the best of my ability. Not long now, and everyone will be able to make up their own minds…
“I’m far more affable in person than I appear to be in print.”
I can vouch for that Dr Dan, after meeting Dennis last November.
He was such a nice guy, and very laid-back.
The trouble with reading emails and web articles is that we don’t hear the inflection in the voice, and it is easy to misinterpret what is being said. It happens to me quite often.
For the benefit of anyone else ‘out there’ idly toying with the idea of giving me a glowing character reference in public, rest assured that I’m always, ALWAYS happy to read such things. The more lavish and generous the praise, the faster they’ll get published, even if they only bear a faint and passing resemblance to the truth.
I hasten to add that this principle only applies to descriptions of myself, whereas the principles involved in writing my book were a different matter altogether.
Neil, there are many ‘faces’ at Stonehenge and if you have a look at Christopher Chippindale’s book, he mentions a lot of them and provides pictures as well. While I think of it, he’s another person whose considered thoughts on the ruins have provided grounds for some of the things I have to say about the monument.
I don’t know what to make of these faces and I was very surprised to see one appear on the trailer for the Timewatch programme, apparently watching benignly while the Druids conducted their ceremony and as Professors Darvill and Wainwright looked on. It’s here somewhere on my site, but I can’t remember where for the moment.
What puzzles me – and I’m looking forward to elucidation from Dennis’s book – is why Jesus should have come to England. After all, this is not exactly the time of mass tourism, and England can hardly have registered on the radar of any but the most dedicated navigators.
I suppose a child progidy may have aroused unwelcome interest in his home land, but a journey to the ends of the (known) earth would not have been necessary to escape attention.
England must have been known as a source of important minerals for instance, like tin and copper, but Joseph was a carpenter, not a metalsmith. And in an age before there was any “civilization” that would match what could be seen in southern Europe and the Middle and Near East, it seems surprising that England should have been a destination for Jesus and his father, let alone a home for some years.
So it seems likely that there must have been some stories of special sanctity, something distinctive about Britain that had reached Joseph. And relatively recent writings like those of Diodorus or Strabo on Pytheas’s earlier travels in Britain would have been available to Joseph.
I don’t know enough about these early writings to know if they describe anything else in Europe to rank with Diodorus’s “renowned temple, of a round form … a city likewise consecrated to the god (Apollo) …” but that seems to be a pretty good reason to come to Britain … and if that was what was in Joseph’s mind, I guess that Stonehenge would have been top of the list on his itinerary.
I’ll have to wait for the book to learn more. My copy is on order!
I believe that there’s an overwhelming body of evidence to suggest that Jesus would have been drawn to Britain just as surely as a moth is drawn to a flame, as surely as gravity drew Newton’s Apple to earth; my book’s divided into three sections, the first of which deals primarily with your question, Alex.
Hmmm, I spoke too soon when I said above that Joseph, father of Jesus, was a carpenter – apparently he could have been a metal working artisan, as the Greek word describing his trade is rather vague. And Jesus’s great-uncle, Joseph of Arimathea, was apparently “a merchant in metals and took young Jesus with him on his business trips …” So the metal mining connection is looking pretty good. I always stretched business trips to see interesting places in the countries I visited – and I bet it was the same 2000 years ago
I’m looking forward to receiving my copy of your book, Dennis – I’m told it’ll dispatch in around 11 days.
Thank you Dennis for explaining what Stonehenge is all about. Indeed one photo does show everything. May I share with you how I drew my conclusions? I’m sure they are wrong but at least, it passes the time waiting for your book to be released. And it’s better to have wrong conclusions than no conclusions at all.
The most difficult part is to relax and not look too hard. Look at the picture for 5 seconds, then turn to your nearest and describe what you have just seen. Only a little, but a little is enough. The fewer words you use to describe the better. For example if you start by describing the photo as showing “stones rearing high into the sky” you are already on track. Remember some of the lectures in “Eternal Idol” and modify this slightly: “Stones linking Heaven and Earth”. This is getting really warm. “Stones defying gravity”, and finally reducing this to one word “weightlessness” – you have a keyword.
Thanks, Dennis. Now I feel I have enough background to describe the use of Stonehenge. I hope you are not offended if I jest for a moment about this sacred ground.
Here is a Neolithic visitor’s guide. It would have to be spoken of course, but I have learnt from
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7911645.stm
that at least a few of my words could have been understood then.
“Welcome to Stonehenge – undertakers for overtakers. Once open ground, our ancestors called this place Cape Canaveral. Then it was changed to Weightlessness – and now Stonehenge.
As you know, those who are good go to the Kingdom of Heaven, and become a star, and enjoy eternal life. Those who doubt if they are good enough, come to Stonehenge.
The stones are THE WAY. They will guide your spiritual departure from this earth and conduct you to the heavens above. The ascent is guaranteed, for we have overcome all earthly bounds. Witness these mighty flying stones. In this magic place we have overcome gravity.
We greet many doubters from all over Europe, staggering in on their last legs. I say to you welcome, die in peace, and don’t forget your last words “Beam me up, Scottie…”
I didn’t explain what Stonehenge is all about in my piece, but I hope that I’ll be bringing something new and worthy of serious consideration along in the pages of my book. I’ve gone into the subject of the ruins in great detail and I’ve chosen to concentrate on some important aspects that I feel have been overlooked.
I’m not remotely offended if you jest about the place; I pride myself on my sense of humour, I’m 100% certain that the people who built it had a sense of humour and I’ve touched on the subject of Jesus having a sense of humour in my book, as I felt it was important [page 22, as I've mentioned before].
“The truth is a pathless land”.
You may be surprised to learn that your above description of Stonehenge is not a million miles away from how I see the place, but as I’ve said before, I’ve gone into this in great depth my book and I hope you enjoy reading it.
In all likelihood Stonehenge was not roofed which indicates the sky was important and marking, perhaps ritualising, celestial events would seem the obvious key.
That such events were could be predicted by alignments of stones showed that the heavens were under control. It was perhaps this contorl that was the source of power that allowed a priestly elite to develop. This elite increased its influence through even grander schemes culminating with the trilithons which framed the most significant astronomical phenomenon and thereby conquered the sky – ultimate control . It could be this pursuit that resulted in the monument being re-orientated to the sun rather than the moon.
This is all very good but clear views would have been important so it is disconcerting that trees were discovered in the Avenue last year!
[...] and terrorized woman. The rampage occurred at a 1979 Fiesta parade in San Antonio, about …Eternal Idol Blog Archive Two Unfathomable Mysteries …Cutting through to the truth is hard work, and it is clear to me that you are on an important trail. [...]
Care to comment?




There is a green hill far away,
Without a city wall,
Where the dear Lord was crucified,
Who died to save us all.
This was my favourite hymn as a child, and expresses eloquently and beautifully the essentials of the Christian faith.
But is it true? From my more recent reading, it would appear that perhaps not even one in a million Christians fully understand the reasons why Jesus was crucified. Many encrustations have been added over the years, and like onion layers, they obscure the core truth at the centre.
We have briefly touched upon this matter in an earlier discussion, and so I know that it is not addressed in your book. I am very much looking forward to reading your book, but now that you are in the swing of revealing new and unexpected aspects, maybe you have in mind to write a sequel. I hope that you will do. May I suggest “The Missing [Faith /Religion / Beliefs] of Jesus” as a title.
Another aspect that very much puzzles me, is where did the idea of drinking sacrificial blood come from? For traditional Judaism, the very concept of drinking blood is horrifying, even symbolically as a cup of wine. I would be interested to know whether you have addressed the root origins of this idea in your forthcoming book, although it probably is outside its scope.
I do very much wish for peace in the world, but we are beset on all sides by propaganda and misinformation. (I never did believe the 45 minute claim). Cutting through to the truth is hard work, and it is clear to me that you are on an important trail. We cannot hope for a genuine peace if we, or those in significant leardership positions are dishonest. We must face the truth, even if doing so is uncomfortable, not politically correct, or increasingly is legislated against.
Of course, your book will be variously lambasted, vilified, deliberately ignored, and seen as a threat. Would you expect otherwise? However, I do believe that it will also open the eyes of many, and as such will be of great assistance to the quest for a genuine and lasting peace in the world of today.